(Dr. Mohammed) Thank you Dr. Campbell, Dr. Zakir Naik, for your presentations, as well as the response. Lastly, we have the audience participation session, namely the Question and Answer session. To extract maximum benefit, in the limited time of 60 minutes. approximately, that we have available, we would like the following rules to be observed. Your questions should be only on the topic ‘The Qur’an and the Bible in the light of the subject of science – Questions out of the topic would not be entertained. Kindly state your question briefly and to the point – this is not a lecture time, neither a counter question time, for the questioners. Dr William Campbell and Dr. Zakir Naik should answer comprehensively, and each answer should not exceed 5 minutes. Four mikes have been provided in the auditorium for the questions from the mikes – Two next to the stage for the gents, and two in the rear of the center ailes, for the ladies. Those who would like to put forward a question to Dr. William Campbell, May kindly queue up behind the mikes on my left – Gents in the front, ladies in the rear. And those who would like to put forward a question to Dr. Zakir, may kindly line up behind the mikes on my right – Gents in the front and the ladies in the rear. I would like the audience in the balcony, to kindly excuse us. We are happy that this is a full session jam packed hall – but we would request you to kindly take the trouble to come down to the mikes, if you would like to put forward a question. Only one question at a time may be put forward – if you have a second question, you would have to line up behind again, to put forward your second question. Written question on index cards, available from the volunteers in the aisles, would be given secondary preference, after the questions on the mikes are handled by the speakers. Please write on the card to whom your question is addressed – Dr. William Campbell’ or ‘Dr. Zakir Naik’, so that they can be put in the appropriate boxes in front of you – Transparent boxes with the names ‘Dr. William Campbell’ and ‘Dr. Zakir Naik’ put on them, so that the questions could be shaken up be the co ordinators, and the speakers themselves could select the questions at random. These would be screened by the panel of the speakers, to see that they are relevant and on the topic, and okayed by the co. ordinators, to be put forward on the co ordinators mike, which the speakers would have to answer. Kindly state your name and profession, before putting forward your question. We will allow one question at a time, in a clockwise rotation, alternately addressed to each speaker. Like, Dr. Campbell… one question, Dr. Zakir Naik… the second question, then Dr. Campbell the 3rd question, and Dr. Zakir Naik the second question. I am sorry it would be a zigzag fashion, rather than a clockwise fashion – the way the mikes have been arranged by the organizers. So first question next to the stage, 2nd question next to the stage, 3rd question on my left in the rear, 4th question in the rear on my right, and so on. We would allow approximately 40 minutes for these questions, and then we switch over to the questions on the slips. May we have the first question from the mike on my left for Dr. William Campbell.
(Q) – I would like to ask Dr. Campbell if…. In Genesis, it says… when it talks about the flood, Noah’s flood – it talks about, that the water covered the surface of the earth, all the creations and all the mountains and everything, and it says that it covered the highest mountain on earth, and that was 15 cubits, which is in Arabic, 15 foot you know ‘kadam.’ So we know scientifically that the highest mountain on earth is not 15 foot – you know it is a lot higher than that – so how come that in Genesis, it says that the water covered everything, every single mountain on earth – and the highest was 15 foot?
(Dr. William Campbell) Thank you for your question – I think it is saying is that it is above the highest mountain. If the highest mountain is 3000 meters, well then high … it is 15 feet …15 foots above, it however.
(Dr. Mohammed) Brother we will not allow any questions in between – No counter questions please. Let the questioner put his question – full stop. Then the speaker gives his answer in whatever manner he chooses – Thank you.
(Dr. William Campbell) And I looked into this, in the Qur’an – I think it actually would be understood to be in the same way. Because it says in Surah 11 Verse 40… ‘The fountains of the earth gushed forth and the waves like mountains.’ And then it says in the places where it gives a list of prophets – there is no prophet before Noah. And so I know Adam could be a Prophet, but I am…. So no where is it listed. And I think that it says in the Qur’an too, that the whole world was covered.
(Dr. Mohammed) Yes brother, question for Dr. Zakir Naik – Could the volunteer kindly put the mike down?
(Q) Dr. Zakir, you said that there is a…
(Dr. Mohammed) Excuse me, Excuse me…. The second question would come from the mike on my right, for Dr. Zakir.
(Q) Okay you said that Allah reflects light and…. He is made of Nur – I did not really understand that.
(Dr. Zakir) The brother posed a question – he did not understand my explanation to the counter argument of Dr. William Campbell, regarding ‘Nur’ and ‘Allah.’ The Qur’an says in Surah Nur, Chapter 24, Verse No. 35, that Allah is ‘Nurus samaavaati wal ardh’ ‘is the light’ of the heavens and the earth – He is a light. The meaning of ‘light’ in the Qur’an – it is ‘reflected light’ or borrowed light. So he is asking… ‘Does it mean that even Allah has got borrowed light?’ So the answer is given further, if you read the Verse – it says that it is like a parable of a nitche – In the nitche there is a lamp. Lamp has a light of its own. That means, Allah has light of its own, as well as that light of its own, is also being reflected. The light of Allah Subhnawataala is again being reflected by Allah Subhanawataala himself, like a halogen lamp that you see here – It has a tube in between. The lamp you can refer to that, as a ‘Siraj’ or a ‘Wahaj’ or a ‘Dia.’ And the reflector as ‘Munir’ or ‘Nur’, borrowed light or ‘reflection of light.’ And further more, but natural this light – actually does not refer to the physical light you are talking about – It is a spiritual light of Allah Subhnawataala – But as an answer I have given to Dr. William Campbell. And since I have got 5 minutes, I would like to utilize it. Dr. William Campbell gave a reply to Noah Alai Salaam – I am a person who use the concordance approach with the Bible, and conflict approach the Qur’an, because both ways Alhamdullilah, Qur’an will pass the test. And even if I agree with Dr. William Campbell, and I agree with him – it is right, that it was 15 feet above the highest mountain. But it is mentioned in Genesis, Chapter No 7, Verse No 19 and 20, that… ‘The full world was submerged under water.’ And further more, archeological evidence show us today – and the time. Of Noah’s time if you calculate by Genealogy, it comes to in the 21st to 22nd century B.C. Archeological evidence show us today, that the 3rd Dynasty of Babylon, and 11th Dynasty of Egypt, were present at the 21st and 22nd century B.C. and there was no evidence of flood – and they remained uninterrupted. Therefore, Archeological evidence show us, that it is impossible that the earth was submerged – the full earth was submerged under water, in the 21st, 22nd century B.C. What about the Qur’an?… What about the Qur’an? Point no 1 – Qur’an does not give a date – whether 21st Century B.C. or 50th century B.C. – no date. Point no 2 – No where does the Qur’an say – the full world was submerged under water. It speaks about Noah Alai Salaam and his Qaum… and his people – A small group of people, or maybe a large group of people. Archeological evidences tell today – and the Archeologists they say, that… ‘We have no objection – it is possible that parts of the world was submerged under water – but full world, its not possible.’ So Alhamdulillah, the Qur’an is matching with the latest discoveries in Archeology, but the Bible does not. Further more, if you read Genesis, Chapter No 6, Verse No. 15 and 16, it speaks about Almighty God, telling Noah Alai Salaam, that build an ark – and it gives the length, 300 cubits in length, 50 cubits in breadth, and height 30 cubit. Cubit is 1 and a half feet – The brother made a mistake – it is one and a half feet. And the New International Version – it says… 450 feet in length, and 75 feet in breadth, and approximately 45 feet in height – It is 30 cubit in height. If you measure this… I have done the calculation – it comes too less then 150 thousand cubic feet in volume and area wise 33,750. And the Bible says there were 3 floors – Ground floor, 1st storey, and 2nd storey. So multiply by 3, you get an answer of 101 thousand, 250 square feet – That is the area. Imagine a pair of all the species of the world, was accommodated in 101 thousand, 250 square feet. Imagine! Is it possible? …Millions of species are there in the world? If I tell… ‘In this auditorium… one million people came in this auditorium’- Will you believe? I remember, I think last year, I had given a talk in Kerala – and there were 1 million people – that is the biggest gathering I have addressed, Alhamdulillah by Allah’s grace. 1 million people! I could not see the end – It was not an auditorium – it was a big beach. I could not see any one – Only few people in the front – That is all. Few… compared to the one million people that were there. If you see on the videocassette, you will realize how big is one million – Somewhat like Arafat – you see 2 ½ million people in Arafat. In a area of 101 thousand, 250 square feet, or 150 thousand cubit feet, it is impossible – and above that they stayed for 40 days eating, going for call of nature. If say…‘1 million people came in this auditorium’ – Will you believe? So scientifically, there are several things, in which there are gross scientific errors in the Bible.
(Dr. Mohammed) Can we have the next question for Dr. Campbell, from the mike at the rear ?
(Q) Dr. Naik, you said that…
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) No… No…. Excuse me – This question is for Dr. Campbell, so you have to wait.
(Dr. Mohammed) So the next person would like to ask a question to Dr. Campbell.
(Q) Yes! I would like to pose this question or rather this test, to Dr. William Campbell. Why do not you attempt the falsification test of the Bible, given in the book of Mark, Chapter. 16, Verses 17 and 18, and prove to the audience here, right now, that you are a true Christian believer?
(Dr. William Campbell) Well I do not agree with Dr. Naik’s interpretation. God… Jesus himself was tempted, and the devil said… ‘Well, if you are the Son of God, throw yourself off the temple.’ And Jesus said… ‘You will not tempt the Lord, your God. And so if I was this day and say… ‘Oh yes… I am going to be sure, and do a miracle in front of you’ – I would be tempting God. My friend Harry Rancliff – he had promised to go, and so he decided to keep his promise, and trust God to do His will.
It is a different situation – I will not tempt God.
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) Question for Dr. Naik.
(Dr. Mohammed) May we have the question in the rear, from the sister ?
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) She is for Dr. Naik, or Campbell ?
(Dr. Mohammed) At the back.
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) Do you have a question for Dr. Naik at the back, ladies?
(Q) Yes… okay my question is for Dr. Zakir Naik. The Christians explain the concept of trinity, scientifically by giving the example of water, which can be in 3 states – solid, liquid and gas, in the form of ice water and vapour. Similarly, one God is a triune God – Father, son and Holy Ghost. Is this explanation scientifically correct?
(Dr. Zakir) Just a comment, before I give the answer – We should not tempt God… we should not test God – But here, we are not testing God, we are testing the human being. We should not test God – But here we are testing you, and God promises that any believer, who has deadly poison, he will not die – he will be able to speak in foreign tongues. We are not testing God – we know God is correct – He will see to it that every believer can speak. We are testing you, whether you are a believer or not Coming to the question of the sister, that there are Christians who say that scientifically we can prove the concept of trinity – like how water can be in 3 states solid, liquid and gas… like ice, water and vapour, so similarly, we know God is in 3 forms father, son and holy ghost. How to reply – and is this scientifically correct ?
Scientifically, I do agree water can be in 3 forms solid, liquid and gas… Ice, water and vapour. But scientifically, we also know that the component of water remains the same. H2O – 2 atoms of hydrogen, and one atom of oxygen. The components remain the same; the constituents remain the same – the forms keep on changing; there is no problem. Let us check with the concept of ‘trinity’- Concept of trinity – Father, son, and holy ghost – Form… they say… ‘Form changes.’ Okay for the sake of argument, we agree. Does the component change? God and holy Ghost are made of spirit – Human beings are made of flesh and bones – They are not the same. Human beings require to eat – God does not require to eat, to survive – They are not the same. And this is testified by Jesus Christ, peace be upon him, himself in the Gospel of Luke, Chapter No. 24, Verse No. 36 to 39. He says that… ‘Behold my hands and feet – Handle me and see, for a spirit has no flesh and bones.’ He says… ‘Behold my hands and feet – Handle me and see, for a spirit has no flesh and bones.’ And he gave his hands, and they saw, and they were overjoyed. And he said that… ‘Do you have any meat to eat ?’ And they gave him broiled fish and a piece of honeycomb – And he ate. To prove what? That he was God? To prove that he was not God. He ate, and he is flesh and bones – A spirit has got no flesh and bones. This proves that it is scientifically not possible that Father, son and Holy Ghost – Father, Jesus Christ, peace be upon him, and Holy Ghost, is Almighty God. And the concept of ‘trinity’, – the word ‘trinity’ does not exist anywhere in the Bible. The word trinity is not there in the Bible – But it is there in the Qur’an. Qur’an says in Surah Nisa, Chapter No. 4, Verse No. 171, it says…. (Arabic)…. Do not say trinity…. (Arabic)…desist stop it! It is better for you.’ Trinity is also there in Surah Maidah, Chapter No.5, Verse No.73, which says …(Arabic)… They are doing ‘Kufr’ – They are blaspheming – those who say that Allah in 3 in one – Is a triune God. Jesus Christ, peace be upon him, never said he was God – The concept of trinity does not exist in the Bible. The only verse which is closest to the concept of ‘trinity’, is the 1st Epistle of John, Chapter No.5, Verse No.7, which says… ‘For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the word and the holy ghost, and these 3 are one. But if you read the Revised Standard Version, revised by 32 scholars… Christian scholars, of the highest eminence, backed by 50 different co-operative denominations, they say… ‘This verse of the Bible – 1st Epistle of John, Chapter 5 Verse No.7 is an interpolation, is a concoction, is a fabrication’ – It was thrown out of the Bible. Jesus Christ peace be upon him, never claimed Divinity. There is not a single unequivocal statement in the complete Bible, where Jesus Christ peace be upon him says… ‘I am God’ – or where he says… ‘Worship me’. Infect if you read the Bible, it is mentioned in the Gospel of John, Chapter No.14, Verse No.28 – he said…‘My Father is greater than I’; Gospel of John, Chapter No.10, Verse No.29…‘My Father is greater than all’; Gospel of Mathew, Chapter No.12, Verse No.28…‘I cast out devils with the spirit of God’; Gospel of Luke, Chapter No.11, Verse No.20…‘I with the finger of God, cast out devil’; Gospel of John, Chapter No.5, Verse No.30… ‘I can of my own self do nothing’…‘I can of my own self do nothing – As I hear, I judge and my judgement is just, for I seek not my own will, but the will of my Father.’ Anyone who says… ‘Not my will but God’s will’ – he is a Muslim. Muslim means the person who submits his’ will to almighty God. Jesus Christ peace be upon him said…‘Not my will but God’s will.’ He was a Muslim – and he was Alhamdulillah, one of the mightiest messengers of God. We believe…We believe that he was born miraculously, without any male intervention. We believe he gave life to the dead, with God’s permission. We believe that he healed those born blind, and lepers with God’s permission. We respect Jesus Christ peace be upon him, as one of the mightiest messenger of God. But he is not God, and he is not a part of the trinity – Trinity does not exist. Qur’an says…. (Arabic)… ‘Say He is Allah, one and only.’
(Dr. Mohammed) Before we have the next question from the mike have – earlier I had announced that the ladies should kindly queue up there. Unfortunately they have not queued up there – so we are having a problem of balancing the questions. Okay what we do, we disregard the labels on the mike – If the ladies want to ask from here, we will allow them. Just balance this in practical necessity the hall is jam packed, we understand. We will allow now, one question for Dr. Campbell from here – And the rear mike will be for people who would like to ask questions from the gents, for Dr. Zakir. Similarly for the ladies, the front mike would be for Dr. William Campbell -and the rear mike would be for Dr. Zakir. Are the people queued there… for Dr. Zakir? – Yes. People queued here… for Dr. Campbell? Right. I think they have taken their own positions and changed the positions the organizers had given. We respect it, because of the rush in the hall. Next question for Dr. Campbell, from this mike – Thank you – Yes brother.
(Q) As Salaamu alaikum – Alhamdulillah tonight has been… praise be to Allah, Praise be to the one God, of all mankind – Tonight has been a very interesting dialogue – and a dialogue at that, talking about a very noble topic for mankind, for all mankind, and so we have gathered here….
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) Question… question please.
(Q) Okay – Bismillah… In the name of Allah.
The question is this – Okay, we have come here together for this event tonight – It should benefit us. And so I am asking Dr. Campbell – As a Christian and with your colleagues as well, has this event done its job – Has it opened your heart. Has it at least opened the glimmer, towards looking further into the truth of Islam?
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) Thank you.
(Dr. William Campbell) Well I think I will use the last question to answer yours.
Dr. Naik says… ‘There is no place where Jesus says he is God.’ In Mark 14:61, He did not answer – and again the high priest was questioning him, and saying to him… ‘Are you the Christ, the son of the Blessed One?’ In other words… ‘Are you the Christ, the Son of God ?’ And Jesus said… ‘I am.’ So he did say…‘I am the Son of God, and he did say… ‘he is Divine.’ And the Bible clearly says. I realize he has quoted the verses, he wished to quote – Dr. Naik wished to quote, where Jesus was in his human form. But there is other verses, he says… ‘I and the Father are one.’ It says… ‘In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God. And God was made flesh, and dwelt among us.’ In Jesus’ baptism, the Father spoke and said… ‘This is my beloved son.’ Jesus was there and the Holy Spirit descended – The Father, the son and the Holy Spirit. We did not make this thing up from one heads. Just …a little thing – and now my friend asked the question here… ‘We have learned many things’, and I am always willing to learn. But I still think, that the 500 witnesses that saw Jesus after he rose from the dead, have more power with me, than Mohammed coming 600 years later as one witness – Thank you.
(Dr. Mohammed) We will allow a question for Dr. Zakir from the rear – Yes sister.
(Q) Dr. Campbell did first attempt to bring up supposed false facts pertaining to the Qur’anic views on the universe – and you did refute these accusations. However… was not addressed, what the Bible says about the shape of the earth, and those other aspects.
(Dr. Zakir) Sister asked the question that I did not address, regarding what the Bible says about the shape of the earth – due to lack of time – I can point out another 100 points – lack of time. Anyhow, sister wants to know what the Bible speaks about shape of the earth. It is mentioned in the Bible, in the Gospel of Mathew, Chapter No.4, Verse No.8, it says – the same reference which Dr. William Campbell used about tempting… ‘The devil took him… that is Jesus Christ, peace be upon him, to an exceedingly high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the earth and its glory. Gospel of Luke Chapter No.4, Verse No.5…‘The devil took him to a high mountain and showed him the glory of all the kingdoms of the world.’ Now, even if you go to the tallest mountain, the highest mountain in the world… that is Mount Everest, and supposingly, you have a very good vision, and can see for thousands of miles together – Yet, you will not be able to see all the kingdoms of the world – Because today we know, the earth is spherical. You will not be able to see the kingdom, of the opposite side of the world. The only way you will be able to see, if the earth was flat. That is the description what the Bible gives…‘The earth is flat.’ Further more, this same description is repeated in the book of Daniel, Chapter No.4, Verse No.10 and 11. It says… ‘In a dream, that the tree grew up into the heaven, and there when the tree grew up into the heaven, it grew up so much, that every one from all the ends of the earth, they could see the tree. This is only possible, if the shape of the earth was flat. If a tree is very long and the shape of the earth was flat it is possible. Today it is a universal fact that the world is spherical – You will never be able to see the tree, however much long it is, from the opposite side of the spherical shape of the earth. Further more if you read, it is mentioned in the 1st Chronicles, Chapter No.16, Verse No.30, that… ‘The earth does not move.’ The same is repeated in the book of Psalms, Chapter No.93, Verse No.1, that… ‘Almighty God has stabilized the earth.’ – That means the earth does not move. And in the New International Version, it says that… ‘God has established and stopped the movement of the earth as though…’
(Samuel Nomaan) One minute.
(Dr. Zakir) One minute left or one minute.
(Samuel Nomaan) – One minute left.
(Dr. Zakir) I thought you are asking me to wait for one minute.
Regarding Dr. William Campbell – he said that Jesus Christ peace be upon him said in the Bible in several places, that… ‘He was God’. You can refer to my videocassette ‘Concept of God in major Religions’, which gives all the references and the answers. I will only give you the references of what he quoted…‘I and my Father are one’ is from John, Chapter No 10, Verse No 30. And ‘In the beginning was the word’ is from John Chapter No. 1, Verse No. 1. You go to the context, and you will come to know Jesus Christ peace be upon him, never claimed Divinity. You can take my cassette, which is available at the foyer outside – ‘Concept of God in major Religions’, and ‘Similarities between Islam and Christianity’, which gives the details, that Jesus Christ peace be upon him, never claimed divinity. (Dr. Mohammed) The next question from the lady in the front, for Dr. William.
(Q) You mentioned the test, where a true believer can drink poison, and survive, because of their faith. What about …Resputin, who was poisoned with enough cyanide, killed 16 people and when that did not kill him – he died of blood loss. He was not a good Christian – He had all this. How do you explain this? Well, only a good Christian can drink this poison and live – how do you explain that?
(Dr. William Campbell) Well I do not feel I have to explain it. I mean if Resputin was not a Christian – Well what happened to him has no basis for what happened in the Bible. I said before… Jesus… God did not intend for us to line up here, and start taking poisons, and sees whether he is the true God. Oh sorry! It were not to test God. That was given that these…God said that…these things will happen. An example would be Paul – he went to… when he was shipwrecked – then he… I think it is Creep, but I have the wrong place in my mind – and he landed. And so he was throwing wood in the fire and a snake bit him – Nothing happened to him. But he was not trying to test God – he was trying to throw wood on the fire. It is a different situation.
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) No comment please – Thank you.
(Dr. Mohammed) The next question from the rear, for Dr. Zakir Naik.
(Dr. William Campbell) Excuse … Excuse me…
(Dr. Mohammed) Yes brother.
(Dr. William Campbell) Excuse me sir.
(Dr. Mohammed) Sorry, carry on.
(Dr. William Campbell) I would just like to say about the circle of the earth. In Isaiah 40:22, it says…‘He, God, sits enthroned above the circle of the earth.’
(Dr. Mohammed) Yes Brother – for Dr. Zakir.
(Q) Dr. Zakir, you said there is not any mistake in Qur’an. I see more than 20 mistakes in Arabic grammar, and I will tell you some of them. …(Arabic)… He said in Baqara. And Al-Haj… … (Arabic)…. Which is right, Assabeun or Assabreen – Number 1. Number 2, you said…
(Dr. Mohammed) Brother, one question at a time… Please.
(Q) Of the same thing, he said in Surah Taha, 63….(Arabic) …. Mistake! …. Arabic…. Can you explain that? And there is more than that mistake.
(Dr. Mohammed) Brother we will allow your only… the first part of the question. The second part we will not allow, because we had stated – we will allow one question at a time, so others get a chance too.
(Q) Okay, Okay.
(Dr. Zakir) The brother has asked a very good question. I would like to be more concordance – and agreeing, he has mentioned all 20 grammatical points. And the book he is referring to, by Abdul Faadi… Abdul Faadi correct? – Is the Qur’an infallible? … I can see something… ya… Alhamdulillah my eyesight is good.
I will answer all 20 together, because I have read the book – I will answer all 20, Insha Allah… Insha Allah. Point No. 1 brother… Point No.1… Point No. 1 to be noted – that all Arabic grammar is taken from the Qur’an. Qur’an was the highest Arabic book – A book which has the maximum level of highest literature. All the Arabic grammar has been derived from the Qur’an. Qur’an is the textbook of grammar. Since Qur’an is the textbook of grammar, and all the grammar is derived from the Qur’an, the Qur’an can never have a mistake – Point No.1. Point No. 2… Point No. 2… Point No. 2 – It is like, you know… taking a ruler, and the ruler is there… has a measurement, and your saying the measurement is wrong – It sounds illogical. Point No. 2 – In the different tribes of Arabia, and you know Arabic, and Dr. William Campbell also will agree with me… In different Arabic tribes, the grammar keeps on changing. In some Arabic tribe, the word is feminine; the same word is even masculine in the other tribe. Same word in different tribes – the grammar keeps or changing – Even the gender keeps on changing. So will you check Qur’an, with that faulty grammar? – No! And further more, the eloquence of Qur’an is so high – It is so high, it is far superior. And you know there are various books – On the Internet you go, 12 grammatical mistakes, 21 grammatical mistakes – Abdul Faadi – 20 grammatical mistakes. Do you think the Christian people took out these mistakes? Who took out these mistakes? – Do you know who took out? The Muslims! The Muslim scholars like Zamak Sharif – what they did – that the Qur’an grammar is so high, that it goes against the conventional use of the Arabic. The Qur’an grammar is so high – To prove the Qur’anic grammar was high, they gave examples. And I will give you a couple of examples, which will answer all his 20 questions. They gave the example – like we read in the Qur’an, it says that… ‘The people of Lut Alaihis salaam, they rejected all the messengers.’ ‘They rejected the messengers’… it is mentioned. Dr. William Campbell said… ‘The people of Noah – they rejected the messengers.’ We know from history that there was only one messenger sent to them – So it has a grammatical mistake. Qur’an should have said – The people rejected the ‘messenger’ not ‘messengers.’ I agree with you – with layman grammar like how you and I know, it may be a mistake. But if you read the books written by Arabs – What is the beauty of the Qur’an? The beauty of the Qur’an is – Why does the Qur’an refer ‘messengers’, instead of ‘messenger’? You know why? Because we know that the basic message of all the messengers, was same – That there is one God – About Tawheed – About Allah Subhanawataala. By mentioning, the people of Lut alaihis salaam… the people of Noah, rejected the messenger – It says, by rejecting Lut alahis salaam, they are indirectly rejecting all the messengers.’
See the beauty, see the eloquence… Alhamdulillah! You may think it is a mistake – It is not a mistake. Similarly, people like Anis Shorrosh says, that Qur’an says…‘Qun fa ya Qun…Be and it is’ – It should be ‘Qun fa qaana’ – ‘Be’ and it was. Agreed – Past tense is Qun fa Qaana in Arabic – it is not Qun fa ya Qun. But the Qun fa ya Qun is more superior – It says… Allah – it was, it is, and can do – Past, present and future.
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) Thank you, Dr. Naik.
(Dr. Mohammed) May we have the next question from the brother in the front, for Dr. William Campbell.
(Q) Dr. Campbell, this is a very sincere question – to learn a little more about Christianity. I want to ask that Jesus’ Ministry was only for 3 years, after he was baptized by John the Baptist. So Jesus, the second most powerful person, after God… the son of God – what are his contribution in his early life from first – one year to say 27 or 28 years – What are his significant contributions?
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) This is … excuse me Dr. Campbell, this is not… this is not the topic for tonight – We have, we had…
(Q) In the beginning of the presentation Dr. Campbell mentioned Zulqarnain, from the Chapter 18, of Qur’an, ‘The Cave’ – and he mentioned that, Zulqarnain is Alexander the great. Can you prove me, how you came to that – Zulqarnain is Alexander the great?
(Dr. William Campbell) I only read it in the commentary of Yusuf Ali. But regardless of whether it is Alexander the great, or who it is, the sun does not set in a murky – marsh, and that is what the verse says.
(Dr. Mohammed) Yes sister, the question for Dr. Zakir.
(Q) I do not know the exact verse, but the Bible says… ‘When Jonah was 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of the fish, so shall the son of man, be for 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth.’ Did Jesus peace be upon him, scientifically fulfill the sign of Jonah ?
(Dr. Zakir) What the sister is referring to, is the verse of the Bible, Gospel of Mathew, Chapter No 12, Verse No. 38 and 40, when people asked Jesus Christ peace be upon him… ‘Show me a sign, show me a miracle’. Jesus Christ peace be upon him, says… ‘You evil and adulterations generation, seeketh after a sign, no sign shall be given to you, but the sign of Jonah. For as Jonah was 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of the whale, so shall the son of man be 3 days and 3 nights, in the heart of the earth’ – Sign of Jonah. Jesus Christ peace be upon him, puts all his eggs in one basket. And if you go to the sign of Jonah… the book of Jonah is less than 2 pages, and most of us know. And if you analyze, that Jonah was 3 days and 3 nights – but Jesus Christ peace be upon him, we know from the Gospels, that he was put on the cross – the alleged crucification – alleged. By late evening, he was brought down from the cross and put in a sepulchre – And on Sunday morning if you see, the stone is moved away, and the sepulchre is completely empty. So Jesus Christ peace be upon him, is in the tomb, on Friday night – Friday night, he was in the tomb… Friday night.’ He was there in Saturday morning, one day, one night, one day. And he was there Saturday night – so two nights and one day – two nights. And Sunday morning the tomb was empty. So Jesus Christ peace be upon him, was there for two nights, and one day – It is not 3 days and 3 nights. Dr. William Campbell gives the reply in his book, that… ‘You know, part of the day can be counted as one day – And if a patient comes to me, who is sick on Saturday night – on Monday morning, and if I ask him… ‘How long are you sick for ? ’ He will say… ‘ 3 days.’ I agree with you – Concordance approach, I agree – I am very generous. You say part of the day, is full day – I agree with you. So Saturday night, part of the day – one day. Sunday, part of the day, full day – one – good. Monday part of the day full day – no problem. If patient says… ‘3 days’ – No objection. But no patient will ever say… ‘3 days and 3 nights.’ I challenge. I have Alhamdulillah, met various patients – I have not come across a single patient, including Christian missionaries, who have ever told to me – who were sick in the night, day before yesterday, saying… ‘I am sick for 3 days, 3 nights.’ So Jesus Christ peace be upon him, did not say… ‘3 days’ – Jesus Christ peace be upon him said… ‘3 days and 3 nights.’ So it is a mathematical error – Scientifically, Jesus Christ peace be upon him, did not prove. And further more, the prophecy says… ‘As Jonah was, so shall the son of man be.’ Jonah was – How? How was Jonah in the belly of the Whale?… Belly of the fish… Dead or alive? Alive – When he was thrown over board, he was alive. In the belly of the whale, he goes around the ocean, dead or alive? – Alive. He prays to Almighty God… dead or alive ? – Alive! He is vomited out on the seashore – Dead of alive? Alive, alive, alive, alive. When I ask the Christians… ‘How was Jesus Christ peace be upon him, in the sepulchre… in the tomb – Dead of alive ?’ They tell me… ‘Dead.’
‘Alive?’ – Alhamdulillah! – Is it a Christian? If he is alive, Alhamdulillah he was not crucified – If he is dead, he has not fulfilled the sign. You can refer to my video cassette ‘Was Jesus Christ peace be upon him really crucified ?’ – I have proved that Jesus Christ peace be upon him was not crucified. As the Qur’an says in Surah Nisa, Chapter 4, Verse No. 157… (Arabic) … ‘They did not kill him, neither did they crucify him – It was only made to appear so.’
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) Thank you, Dr. Naik.
(Dr. Mohammed) Doctor…. Question for Doctor William.
(Q) Doctor Campbell, since you are a medical doctor, could you please explain scientifically, the various medical aspects that are in the Bible, regarding…. Because you did not answer them in your rebuttal. For example, blood used as a disinfectant, bitter water test for adultery, and most importantly, that the woman is unclean for double the period, when she gives birth to a daughter, than as compared to a son?
(Dr. William Campbell) Thank you for the question, and I will get to it – But Dr. Naik keeps getting the questions that should come to the Christian. It says that… ‘On the next day when it was one, after the preparation, the Chief Priest and the Phrases gathered together with Pilot. And said… ‘Sir, we remember that when he was still alive, that he had said: After 3 days I am to rise again – Therefore give waters, for the grave to be made secure, until the 3rd day. So they are using these words, interchangeably. As far as I am concerned, all of these word… ‘The 3rd day, after the 3rd day, equal what happened with Jesus in the grave – The other thing is and then, his resurrection. There is one other thing – When Jesus was arrested, on Thursday night…
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) Please be quiet – This is not going to work like this – Please be patient.
(Dr. William Campbell) Thursday, and Thursday after… When he was arrested, he said… ‘My hour has come.’ And so I counted that 3 days and 3 nights. Now you have asked me about these places in the Bible – I believe the Bible was written by God, and I believe that God put them in there. So it is not up to me to explain what God said – But I believe that God put those things in his Bible. (Dr. Mohammed) Now we will have the last question on the mike, from the brothers at the back, for Dr. Zakir – then we start the questions on index cards. That is the last question, as per one-time limitations please – for Dr. Zakir.
(Q) Salaam alaikum – My name is Aslam Rauf – And I am a student studying Biology right now. And my teacher is teaching me… Evolution now – And I was wondering about the Islamic answer to ‘Evolution’ right now. If you could explain briefly – What Islam says on the topic of ‘evolution’ and creationism.
(Dr. Zakir) The brother has asked a question. Just as Dr. William Campbell is taking the liberty to answer, even I will take the liberty. No where in the Qur’an is the name of ‘Alexander’ mentioned – It says ‘Zulqarnain’… not ‘Alexander.’ If some commentator has made a mistake, it is a mistake in the commentary – The men have made the mistake – Not the word of God. Regarding the Bible, saying that…‘the world’…in Isaiah, ‘is a circle.’ No problem – It says… ‘Circle’, not spherical.
So one place Bible says… ‘Flat’- one place it says… ‘Circle.’ If you agree with both the verses, it becomes like a disk. See – Does it look like the earth? It is circle, and it is flat – This is not the earth.
Regarding Biology in the Qur’an, and regarding ‘evolution’ – two questions the brother asked. I do not know whether I can answer both or not – I do not mind.
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) Any one.
(Dr. Zakir) Which one? First one, or second one? – Biology? Or evolution?
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) Evolution will be good.
(Dr. Zakir) Are you choosing or he is choosing.
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) Because he had asked the question for evolution – I think it will be good.
(Dr. Zakir) Two questions – Biology first, and then evolution. If you give me 10 minutes I will answer both.
(Dr. Mohammed) Only in 5 minutes, whatever you can do.
(Dr. Zakir) Okay fine – I agree with the chairperson Mr. Samuel Naaman – I will answer on evolution. The exact answer, you can refer to my video cassette – ‘Qur’an and Modern Science.’ Regarding when you talk about evolution, you start thinking about Darwin’s theory. And Darwin went on his ship – at ‘H.M.H. Bugle’ to an island by the name of ‘calatropis’ and he saw birds pecking at niches. Based on that observation that the beaks of the birds became long and short, he propounded the natural selection. But he wrote a letter to his friend Thomas Thompton, in 19th century – He said that… ‘I do not have proof to propound my natural selection but because it helped me in classification of embryology, of rudimentary organs, I put forth this.’ Darwin’s theory is not a fact at all – It is only a theory. And I made it very clear in the beginning of my talk… ‘Qur’an can go against theories’, because theories take U-turns – But Qur’an will not go against any established fact. And in our school we are taught about Darwin’s theory, as though it is a fact .its not a fact. There is no scientific proof at all – ‘there are missing links.’ Therefore if someone has to insult his friend, his colleague, he will say… ‘If you were present at Darwin’s time, Darwin’s theory would have been proved right – insinuating, he looks like an ape. There are missing links with Darwin’s theory. And I know about the four fossils that are present – the Hominoids – the Lucy. Orthalopetians, with its guide, the Homoeructus, Naindertolman, and Cromageron – For details, refer to my videocassette. By molecular Biology, according to Hansis Cray, he said it is impossible that we can be evolved from apes, by DNA coding – it is impossible. You can refer to my videocassette – It gives the details. Some parts I have no objection. Regarding biology, Qur’an says in Surah Ambiya, Chapter 21, Verse No. 30, … Arabic… ‘We have created every living thing from water – Will you not then believe ?’ Today we know that every living creature – The basic substance… the cell contains cytoplasm, which has about 90% water. Every living creature in the world has approximately 50 to 90 % water. Imagine… in the deserts of Arabia, who could have imagined, that every thing is made of water ? Qur’an says that 14 hundred years ago. In the field of…
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) Time – Dr. Naik.
(Dr. Zakir) Thank you.
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) Thank you very much.
(Dr. Mohammed) We would now start the questions on slips of paper. We would have this box for Dr. William Campbell – this box for Dr. Zakir Naik. We turn the boxes – their name towards themselves, so they do not see through, while you will can see. They pick up the questions, looking away from the box, and they answer it themselves – ‘Whatever they have choose, they to answer. The first question for Dr. William Campbell, and next the question for Dr. Zakir. They can pick up the questions in advance so that we won’t … do not waste time, in their reading the questions. So one – one questions you can start – and we will allow Dr. William to read for some time if he wants. There is the first question.
(Dr. William Campbell) I will read the question – but first I just want to say about… ‘Everything made of water.’ It is perfectly obvious – Every time you smash a bug – It is made of water. Every living being is made of water – But it is observable – It is not a miracle.
(Qtn… Dr. Campbell) Okay Dr. Campbell, if you cannot answer the contradictions in Genesis, regarding the creation – Do not you think that proves that the Bible is unscientific, and therefore not from God ?
(Ans… Dr. Campbell) I admit that I have some problems with this – but I also have all the fulfilled prophecies – and that is very important to me. And it says that… Jesus is the corner stone, and built on a… he is built on a foundation of the apostles, and the Prophets – and so the Prophets prophesied, and the Apostles wrote down, when God fulfilled the prophecy. I know that does not answer your question – But my faith…. is in Christ – for as my savior.
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) Okay, thank you – Dr. Naik.
(Qtn… Dr. Zakir) ‘Text’ and ‘translations’ are two different words, giving two different meanings in the Bible – in English, ‘a text’ or ‘a translation.’ Cannot… scientifically text and translation be proved to be the one and the same ? Did God reveal His messages upon Moses and Jesus peace be upon them, in English ? It is a very good question – Can the text and the translation be the same ? No! A ‘text’ and ‘translation’ cannot be exactly the same – Can come close to it. And according to Maulana Abdul Majid Dariabadi, he said the most difficult book in the world to translate, is the Glorious Qur’an. Because the language of the Qur’an is so eloquent, it, is so superior, so noble – And one word in Arabic, has got several meanings. Therefore to translate the Qur’an, is the most difficult – It is not the same. And if there is a mistake in the translation, it is a human handiwork – the human being who is translating – he is to blame, not Almighty God. Regarding – Was Bible revealed in English? No! – Bible was not revealed in English – It is Old Testament in Hebrew, New Testament in Greek. Though Jesus Christ peace be upon him, spoke Hebrew – But the original Manuscript that you have – it is in Greek. The Old Testament, the original Hebrew is not available – do you know that? The Hebrew translation of the Old Testament is from the Greek – So even the original Old Testament, which is in Hebrew, is not present in Hebrew. So you have a double problem – No wonder you have scribal errors, etc. But the Qur’an–Alhamdulillah, the original Arabic is maintained. It has been… Alhamdulillah scientifically – you can prove it is the same. And regarding – Were Revelations revealed to Jesus Christ peace be upon him, and to Moses peace be upon him. I said in my earlier answers as well as my talk, that we believe the Qur’an says in Surah Al-Rad, Chapter. 13, Verse 38, that Allah Subhanawataala has sent down several Revelations. By name only 4 are mentioned – The Torah the Zaboor, the Injeel and the Qur’an. The Torah is the Wahi, which was given to Moses, peace be upon him. The Zaboor is the Revelation, the Wahi which was given to David, peace be upon him. Injeel is the Revelation, Wahi which was given to Jesus, peace be upon him. And Qur’an is the last and final Revelation which was given to the last and final Messenger, Prophet Mohammed, may peace be upon him.
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) Time, Dr. Naik – Thank you so much.
(Dr. Zakir) But the present Bible is not the Injeel, which we believe in, which, was revealed to Jesus Christ peace be upon him.
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) Thank you Sir – Dr. Campbell.
(Dr. Campbell) But the present Injeel is the one as always been. We have…. We have texts – 75 percent of the texts from 180 A.D – That is 100 years after John wrote. He was – He was alive, and wrote. You have people alive at that point, who knew – who their… grandparents believed, through John. That is good evidence, and good text – The Bible is valid history. Now the question – With the probability you presented – It is a great calculation – Thank you. But in the matter of God, it is completely inferior. God is All Powerful, and can choose who he likes.’ – Off course No matter rich or poor, or any other thing – so how then does you probability fit in? Jesus was poor – he was chosen – He said… ‘The son of man, has no where to lay his head.’ I am not sure about this – I do not see how the calculation is talking about that. Calculation was – how many people could… fulfill all those prophecies? I hope that is been helpful – Thank you.
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) Thank you… Dr. Naik, go ahead – please go ahead – Thank you.
(Qtn… Dr. Zakir) To an effort to prove… in an effort to prove, the Qur’an is so heavily agreeable to modern science – what happens if modern science is wrong?… Does the Qur’an always change, to reflect the changes in science? That is a very good question – It is a very important question. And we Muslims should be very careful while being compatible with the Qur’an and modern science. Therefore I said in the beginning of my talk – I will only be speaking about those scientific facts, which have been established. And a scientific fact, which has been established – for example, the earth is spherical – It can never go wrong. Established science can never take U-turns. But unestablished science like hypothesis and theories can take U-turns. I know Muslim scholars, who have tried to prove Darwin’s theory, from the Qur’an. Nonsense! So therefore, we should not go overboard, and try and prove everything of modern science. We have to be careful to check up whether it is established, or unestablished. If it is established, Alhamdulillah, with scientific proof, the Qur’an will never go against it. If it is hypothesis, it may be right, it may be wrong. Like ‘Big Bang’ theory – It was a hypothesis earlier – Earlier it was a hypothesis. Today after solid proof about the celestial matter… according to Steven Hawkins, etc., it is a fact. So Big Bang theory, today is a fact – Yesterday if was a hypothesis – Once it becomes a fact, I use it. You know there are hypothesis saying that… ‘Human beings have been created from a single pair of genes’ – Adam and Eve. I do not use it, because science has not established. It goes along with the Qur’an. It goes along with the Qur’an, that we have been evolved from one pair Adam and Eve, peace be upon them – But I do not use it, because that is not an established fact. So therefore, while bringing a co-relation between Qur’an and science, etc., see to it that you use only those scientific facts which have been established… and not hypothesis – because Qur’an is far superior to modern science. I am not trying to prove the Qur’an to be the word of God, with the help of science – No, not at all. What I am trying to do – For us Muslims, Qur’an is the ultimate criteria – For the Atheist and for the Non Muslims maybe, science may be the ultimate criteria. I am using the criteria… the yard stick of the Atheist, and comparing with the yard stick of the Muslims – The Qur’an. I am not trying to prove the Qur’an to be the word of God, with the help of science. What I am trying to do, when I bring a compatibility, and I show the superiority Qur’an ? – That what your science has told us yesterday… Qur’an has told us 14 hundred years ago. I am trying to prove that our yard stick… the Muslim yardstick… the Qur’an, is far superior to your yard stick – The science. Therefore, you should believe in Qur’an, which is far superior – Hope that answers the question.
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) Thank you Dr. Naik.
(Dr. Mohammed) Yes, Dr. Campbell.
(Mr. Samuel Noman) This is the last.
(Dr. Mohammed) Excuse me – Last two questions for the speakers.
We will ask the audience to just bear for us, for a few minutes more We have the last question on the slip for Dr. Campbell, followed by one last question for Dr. Zakir – and we will ask you to please wait till the end.
(Qtn… Dr. William Campbell) It is the same question as the last one, really. Dr. Campbell agreed to Dr. Naik, that the errors he showed are not wrong, and that he cannot answer them. So does this mean that Dr. Campbell agrees that the Bible has errors – So it is not the word of God ?
(Ans… Dr. William Campbell) There are things in the Bible, that I cannot explain – that I do not have an answer for now. And I am willing to wait, until I see whether an answer comes. There are many places where archeological things have proved, that the Bible is true – talking about towns, and who is king, and things like that – And I think there is great proof, that the Bible is valid in good history.
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) Thank you, Dr. Campbell.
(Qtn… Dr. Zakir) The question is… ‘Are there any more mathematical contradictions in the Bible ?’ What is this… Bible or Islam ?… Sorry. Are there any more mathematical contradictions in Islam? Are there any more? – Is it Bible or Islam? – I do not know – I will answer both. Because… ‘Is there any more ?’ – It should be Bible, because I spoke about contradictions. Anyway regarding Islam – the Qur’an says in Surah Nisa, Chapter 4, Verse No.82…. (Arabic)…. ‘Do they not consider the Qur’an with care? – Had it been from anyone besides Allah, there would have been many contradictions.’ There is not a single. Regarding more contradictions in the Bible – five minutes will be insufficient – Even if they give me 5 days, its difficult. Any way I will just mention a few. It is mentioned in the 2nd Kings, Chapter No.8, Verse No.26, it says that… ‘Ahezia… that Ahezia, he was 22 years old, when he began to reign.’ 2nd Chronicles, Chapter No. 22, Verse No. 2, says that… ‘He was 42 years old, when he began to reign. Was he 22 years old, or was he 42 years old? – Mathematical contradiction. Further more, in 2nd Chronicles, Chapter No. 21, Verse No. 20, it says that… ‘Joaram, the father of Ahezia, he reigned at the age of 32 – and he reigned for 8 years, and he died at the age of 40. Immediately… Ahezia became the next ruler at the age of 42. Father died at the age of 40 – Immediately son takes over, who is at the age of 42. How can a son, be two years older than the father?’ Believe me even… even in Hollywood film, you will not be able to produce it.
In Hollywood film, you can produce a ‘unicorn’ which I mentioned in my talk. Unicorn… you can have Coccrodyasis, which the Bible speaks about, Concrodyasis and dragons and serpents. But in Hollywood you cannot even show a son, being two years older than the father. It cannot even be a miracle – Even in miracles; it is not possible – Impossible. In miracle, you can have a person being born of a virgin birth – but in miracle you cannot have a son being older than the father, by 2 years. Further if you read – it is mentioned in the Bible, in 2nd Samuel Chapter No 24, Verse No 9, that… ‘The people that were involved in the battlefield. It gives a list of these people, in 2nd Samuel, Chapter 24, Verse No. 9, and it says that… ‘People that took part 800 thousand of the men of Israel, took part – and 500 thousand of the men of Judah same.’ If you see other places, 1st Chronicle, Chapter 21, Verse No. 5, it says that… ‘1 million – Hundred thousand people took part in the battle field, from the men of Israel – and ten thousand four hundred and sixty men took part of Judah.’ Was it 800 thousand people who took part from the men of Israel, or was it 1 million – 100 thousand? Was it 5 lakh people of Judah that took part or 10,460? A clear-cut contradiction. Further more, it is mentioned in the Bible in 2nd Samuel, Chapter No. 6, Verse No 23, that… ‘Michael the daughter of Saul – she had no sons’ – 2nd Samuel’, Chapter 21, Verse No. 8… ‘Michael the daughter of Saul had 5 sons.’ One place it says… ‘No children, no son, no daughter’ – Other place… ‘5 sons.’ Further more if you read, it is mentioned in Gospel of Mathew, Chapter No. 1, Verse No. 16 – it says about the genealogy of Jesus Christ peace be upon him – as well as Luke Chapter No. 3, Verse No. 23, and it says that… Jesus’ father, that is Joseph – his father was Jacob’ – Mathew, Chapter 1, Verse 16. And Luke, Chapter No 3, Verse No 23… Jesus’ father… Joseph – his father was Hailey. Did Jesus’ father… Joseph, had two fathers ? What do you call a person who has got two fathers ? Or was it Hailey – or was it Jacob ? Clear-cut contradiction.
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) Thank you, Dr. Naik, Thank you very much.
(Dr. Mohammed) Can we … can we have you bear with us for 2 minutes ? We have the renowned, international Islamic scholar amongst us… Dr. Jamal Badawi – and on behalf of the Islamic Research Foundation, we feel it an honour, if he would take the pleasure of inaugurating or releasing the book just written by Dr. Zakir Naik – ‘The Quran and Modern Science – Compatible or Incompatible’ Dr. Jamal Badawi to release the book, which has just recently been published and printed few days back – and being released here in Chicago, on this appropriate occasion.
(Dr. Jamal Badawi) There is no more fitting way, as a gesture of friendship, than to ask Dr. Zakir to give it to Dr. Campbell, by himself.
(Dr. Mohammed) As we have a very limited number of these copies available – so we request only the Non Muslim guests who have come here, to kindly take a complimentary copy of the book, as they leave the auditorium, if they are interested – It would be a pleasure.’ May I call upon Dr. Sabeel Ahmed, to present the vote of thanks.
(Dr. Sabeel Ahmed) Again on behalf of Islamic Circle of North America, I would really thank all of you for your patience, and all our distinguished guests over here, for giving up a very good performance for all of us. …. (Arabic)….